Repeated Saving Throw Pathfinder Bestow Grace Continuous Pathfinder

2011-08-30,01:33 PM (ISO 8601)

The Holy Liberator class in Complete Divine gives you Divine Grace which is identical to the one Paladins get. RAI they were never intended to stack because Holy Liberator is CG only. BUT! The alternate Paladins, specifically the Paladin of Freedom, still gets Divine Grace AND can qualify for Holy Liberator. So, my question is, would these stack? They are called the exact same thing but neither entry gives specific provision on not stacking which makes me believe they would. Both entries are exactly the same except the level at which its gained and the name of the class (obviously).

2011-08-30,01:35 PM (ISO 8601)

Check the name of the bonus. If the bonus has a type, then no. If it is untyped then it would be a DM's call to decide if they qualift as the same ability.

2011-08-30,01:35 PM (ISO 8601)

RAW they won't stack if the bonus is of the same type or name. Like "divine grace". if both are called that, they shouldn't stack.

RAI I wouldn't allow it. Double-dipping the same stat to the same thing tends to go bad ways.

2011-08-30,01:45 PM (ISO 8601)

Bonuses from the same source (Divine Grace) don't stack. For the same reason, a Ninja/Monk doesn't get 2*WIS to AC.

However, there is an ACF to trade out the Paladin's Divine Grace for CHA to AC, so you could grab that and then Holy Liberator.

2011-08-30,01:46 PM (ISO 8601)

I'm sure someone could give a better citation, but a quick scan yielded this:

Quote Originally Posted by Player's Handbook, pg. 171

Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.

Quote Originally Posted by Player's Handbook, pg. 305

bonus: A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies.

The first quote implies that "magical effects" are treated the same way as spells when it comes to stacking, but doesn't outright say it. The second explicitly rules out Divine Grace stacking if two abilities with the same name are considered to be the same source; unfortunately, I couldn't find a concrete definition of what constitutes a "source."

I'm certain I've seen Curmudgeon say two abilities with the same name are the same source for purposes of stacking, though.

2011-08-30,01:48 PM (ISO 8601)

Would Witch Hunter PRC form Oriental Adventures Kami's grace ability stack with Divine Grace?

2011-08-30,01:53 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post

I'm certain I've seen Curmudgeon say two abilities with the same name are the same source for purposes of stacking, though.

I think I read that about Barbarian and Scout and MOnk speed, which do not stack due to being all Enhancement(or was it a PRC setup?), even though it'd make sense that if all three classes involved speed training, speed would add up.
Mechanically this is much more permissible because it's not double-dipping, but a continued progression. I'd allow that over RAW's forbiddance.

2011-08-30,01:55 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post

Would Witch Hunter PRC form Oriental Adventures Kami's grace ability stack with Divine Grace?

Should, unless it's explicitly stated not to. Different sources, after all.

2011-08-30,01:57 PM (ISO 8601)

Both entries are untyped. So the debate is whether they are the same source or not. I'm inclined to say they are but the Munchkin in me wants it not to be so.

EDIT: Taking a look at Paladin of Freedom (I was running off memory) Holy Liberator is (almost) the same class but in Prestige form. The only difference is the when various things come online and Remove Enchantment instead of Remove Disease (frankly this is better IMHO). Also, Holy Liberator remove Fatigue on the party Barbarian 3+Cha times per day. Also useful.

2011-08-30,02:01 PM (ISO 8601)

Same source means the same ability.

Kami Grace +3 and Divine Grace +3 are completely separate sources as opposed to two separate instances of Divine Grace +3 that would not stack with one another.

2011-08-30,02:04 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Diarmuid View Post

Same source means the same ability.

Kami Grace +3 and Divine Grace +3 are completely separate sources as opposed to two separate instances of Divine Grace +3 that would not stack with one another.

Ah but what about the evil paladins Divine Grace and....I can't remember the class but its an arcane class that gets a renamed Divine Grace but is a non-good only class? Those would stack then.

2011-08-30,02:08 PM (ISO 8601)

Anything named something other than "Divine Grace" would stack just fine.

2011-08-30,02:31 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post

However, there is an ACF to trade out the Paladin's Divine Grace for CHA to AC, so you could grab that and then Holy Liberator.

What ACF is this?

2011-08-30,02:34 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by candycorn View Post

What ACF is this?

It's the Red Falcon sub levels, from Champions of Valor. It's got further limits on use, however.

Handy reference.

2011-08-30,02:57 PM (ISO 8601)

We have this argument about once a month. Bonuses from the same source (like 2 spells or 2 class abilities or 2 magic items with same name) do not stack. In addition, bonus types with the same name (such as armor, shield, sacred, vile, luck, insight) do not stack, unless it's a Dodge bonus, and unnamed bonus, or if the description explicitly says otherwise.

The attribute from which the source derives it's bonus (usually Wis or Cha) has no bearing on the stacking rules, but many DM's will rule otherwise because they feel that it breaks the intent of the rules. (And it's actually fairly easy to stack unnamed bonus types from differently named sources - just peruse the X to Y thread).

For example, Divine Grace from multiple sources do not stack, because both bonuses are from a source with the same name. Casting Greater Magic Weapon on a +5 longsword has no additional effect, because both provide Enhancement bonuses to hit and damage. But a Paladin's Divine Grace would stack with a Witch Hunter's Kami's Grace, because they are differently named sources which provide unnamed bonuses.

EDIT: NINJA'S, FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES AND NAMES!

2011-08-30,04:37 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post

EDIT: NINJA'S, FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES AND NAMES!

I agree that multiple ninjas should stack. However, do they stack because they come from different ISPs, or do they stack because they quote different rules text?

2011-08-30,09:16 PM (ISO 8601)

Eh, I've heard the the same name, doesn't stack idea, and it just doesn't sit right with me. There are at least 3 "versions" of Insightful Strike that all do fairly different things, for instance, and the swordsage can get two of them by himself fairly easily. Not to mention all the feats with the same name but different effects (okay, I only know of one, but I'm sure there are more).

I'm willing to allow for same rules text, same ability, doesn't stack, myself - so two instances of Divine Grace that share the same rules text (or reference it) are the same, so they shouldn't stack.

Also, whenever you are looking at abilities that add stats to things, make sure to note whether it reads "..add [Stat] [Modifier] to..." or "...add a bonus equal to your [Stat] [Modifier] to...", since the previous modifier does add the stat modifier, and if another source also says to add the stat modifier, they won't stack, even if they come from different abilities.

2011-08-31,04:52 AM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post

The second explicitly rules out Divine Grace stacking if two abilities with the same name are considered to be the same source; unfortunately, I couldn't find a concrete definition of what constitutes a "source."

I'm certain I've seen Curmudgeon say two abilities with the same name are the same source for purposes of stacking, though.

You're right that this hangs on the meaning of the term "source". While there's no explicit definition given in the rules, there are examples of the term in use in the Dungeon Master's Guide, such as this one referencing sneak attack as a source:

Sneak Attack

This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). If an arcane trickster gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Sneak attack is an untyped bonus to damage rolls, so "source" can't have anything to do with type. The only other possibilities here for "source" would be the class name (where Rogue and Arcane Trickster are different, so there would be no reason to bring up stacking), and the sneak attack named ability that's common to these classes. That leads to the conclusion that it's the name which defines a source.

2011-08-31,05:21 AM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by tonberrian View Post

Eh, I've heard the the same name, doesn't stack idea, and it just doesn't sit right with me. There are at least 3 "versions" of Insightful Strike that all do fairly different things, for instance, and the swordsage can get two of them by himself fairly easily. Not to mention all the feats with the same name but different effects (okay, I only know of one, but I'm sure there are more).

If you read "does not stack" as "overlaps" there is no problem.

2011-08-31,09:57 AM (ISO 8601)

One of the hardest things in building a high optimization charisma focus character is finding worthwhile charisma focused abilities that are not named Divine Grace.

2011-08-31,09:58 AM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Tenno Seremel View Post

If you read "does not stack" as "overlaps" there is no problem.

It's still stupid.

But, like all rule ambiguities, it's ultimately the DM's call.

2011-08-31,11:13 AM (ISO 8601)

I agree that divine grace and divine grace don't stack. ButDivine Grace and Dark Blessing would - say, if you have a Paladin of Tyranny enter Blackguard.

2011-08-31,02:22 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post

One of the hardest things in building a high optimization charisma focus character is finding worthwhile charisma focused abilities that are not named Divine Grace.

Mystic Wanderer's ability is called something like "Grace of the Divine" which totally sounds like a cop-out.

2011-08-31,09:34 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post

Bonuses from the same source do not stack. In addition, bonus types with the same name do not stack, unless it's a Dodge bonus, and unnamed bonus, or if the description explicitly says otherwise.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't this completely invalidate the various uses of PAO that I see all over these boards? (eg- PAO into a Beholder to become a Beholder Mage) I know I rule that way at my table (that is- I don't allow multiple PAOs to be in effect on a single creature at a time).

2011-08-31,09:37 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't this completely invalidate the various uses of PAO that I see all over these boards? (eg- PAO into a Beholder to become a Beholder Mage) I know I rule that way at my table (that is- I don't allow multiple PAOs to be in effect on a single creature at a time).

I cast Resistance to Energy on you, and choose Fire. Then I wait until you walk into some lava, and cast Resistance to Energy on you again, choosing Cold. Do you die?

2011-08-31,09:43 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post

I cast Resistance to Energy on you, and choose Fire. Then I wait until you walk into some lava, and cast Resistance to Energy on you again, choosing Cold. Do you die?

Nope. The Fire resistance stays in effect and you don't gain the benefit of the Cold resistance unless the Fire is dismissed first.

2011-08-31,09:50 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Yorrin View Post

Nope. The Fire resistance stays in effect and you don't gain the benefit of the Cold resistance unless the Fire is dismissed first.

Wrong.

"Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts."

If your ruling was correct, then you could get Bestow Curse cast on yourself with the effect of "must never eat bacon" and then never be subject to any other Curse ever.

2011-08-31,09:53 PM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post

Wrong.

"Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts."

If your ruling was correct, then you could get Bestow Curse cast on yourself with the effect of "must never eat bacon" and then never be subject to any other Curse ever.

While I realize that my ruling isn't RAW for every spell, it prevents buff/debuff stacking in ways that I feel the rules don't intend. And quite frankly, my players aren't creative enough to defensively debuff themselves like that

But I think you've answered my question, thanks.

2011-09-01,02:11 AM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post

If your ruling was correct, then you could get Bestow Curse cast on yourself with the effect of "must never eat bacon" and then never be subject to any other Curse ever.

Not worth it. At all.

2011-09-01,02:25 AM (ISO 8601)

Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post

Not worth it. At all.

Must always consider bacon as a dietary option?

Repeated Saving Throw Pathfinder Bestow Grace Continuous Pathfinder

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